Fr. James Martin and producer Maggie Van Dorn welcome Brené Brown for the Season 1 finale of The Spiritual Life. Before the interview, they answer a listener (Nick) asking how to return to faith after a long absence; Fr. Jim frames the very desire to return as God’s own invitation and encourages finding a welcoming community. He notes it’s normal to come back differently than one left, with a more adult, re-appropriated faith.
Brené’s spiritual backstory & tensions with church:Brown recounts an eclectic upbringing: baptized Episcopal, educated in Catholic schools, and formed amid Jesuit circles—eventually “made Catholic” as a child in a vivid, odd encounter with a bishop. She loved God, liturgy, and community, but struggled with punitive uses of rules and with Church inconsistencies, later distancing from Catholicism during painful family and parish experiences. As an adult she rejoined the Episcopal Church (while feeling “mystically Catholic”), finding it easier to reconcile her values there, yet she keeps a deep love of God distinct from institutional failures.
Mysticism, Jesus, and daily practice:Brown describes “thin places” in worship—passing the peace, singing, and sharing communion alongside people she may not like—as mystical encounters of unity. She practices the Ignatian Examen (often a shorter version) and even adapts traditional prayers (e.g., “deliver us from fear and shame,” and a Hail Mary minus “sinners”) to align with her research on shame and identity. She admits a complicated relationship with “Jesus” as culturally co-opted, yet resonates with the Jesus of the Gospels—vulnerable and tough, embodying paradox—and with Rohr’s “cosmic Christ”; Fr. Jim invites her to keep meeting that Jesus directly in Scripture and experience.
Vulnerability, courage, and the “core” metaphor: From her leadership research, Brown learned that fear isn’t the main obstacle to courage—armor is. That insight instinctively connected her to Jesus’s radical unarmoredness: God arrives as a vulnerable infant and dies exposed on the cross. A pickleball injury led a trainer to tell her, “find your ground,” birthing the thesis of her book Strong Ground: people and institutions sustain “compensatory injuries” when they build on dysfunction and neglect the core—an image she applies to organizations and even to churches that stray from their spiritual center.
Returning to faith, idols of God, and closing reflections: Asked again how to return after absence, Brown says her experience is of faith with open arms and no judgment—God as love, presence, and connection rather than punishment. Fr. Jim adds that many carry mental “idols” of a judging “parole-officer” God; the Examen helps us notice the real God encountered in gratitude, peace, and love across our days. The episode ends with mutual gratitude for honest, in-the-moment reflection, a reminder to live the mystery rather than “solve” it, and a pointer to Maggie’s Advent podcast HARK as the show breaks before Season 2.
Journal and reflect on the following
Where have I experienced God’s presence most deeply in my daily life, and how might I become more aware of it?
What “armor” do I put on—emotionally or spiritually—that keeps me from being open, courageous, and vulnerable before God and others?
How do I respond when the Church or faith community disappoints me—do I separate those failures from my relationship with God?
What does it mean for me personally to “find my ground” in faith? Where is my spiritual core strongest or most in need of renewal?
How do I see the face of God in people I find difficult to love, and what boundaries help me remain kind yet authentic?
How does Jesus’ example of strength and vulnerability challenge or inspire the way I lead, forgive, or serve others?
Am I comfortable living within the mystery of God, or do I still try to control or define my faith too neatly? What would it mean to simply “live the mystery”?
Song - Hold us together
Final prayer
Loving God, You meet us in our vulnerability, beneath the armor we build to feel safe. Teach us to find our ground in You — the quiet center where courage and compassion grow. When we struggle with faith, help us to remember that You wait with open arms, without judgment, only love. May we see Your face in those who challenge us, and recognize Your presence in the mystery that surrounds us. Strengthen our hearts to walk unguarded, to love deeply, and to live with the same honest, daring faith that Christ revealed — gentle, strong, and unafraid. Amen.
